Sir Gene Speaks

0037 Sir Gene Speaks Special - Interview Martin Mouritzen

April 22, 2021 Gene Naftulyev Season 1 Episode 37
Sir Gene Speaks
0037 Sir Gene Speaks Special - Interview Martin Mouritzen
Chapters
0:14
Intro
0:47
Podfriend
18:24
Donation Conversation
24:20
Podcasting 2.0 Update
26:23
The Great Ideas
40:54
Wrap-up
Sir Gene Speaks
0037 Sir Gene Speaks Special - Interview Martin Mouritzen
Apr 22, 2021 Season 1 Episode 37
Gene Naftulyev


I recommend listening at 1.25X

Link to Sphinx https://sphinx.chat/

Story Images and Links are only visible to Podcasting 2.0 Apps :
Get Podfriend
Get Sphynx
Get  Breez
See all the latest APPS for Podcasting 2.0
Produced by:   Anonymous Donors



Move to the same Podcast Host I use!
Get some credit on Buzzsprout! $20 Amazon Gift Card

Support the show (https://bit.ly/39tV7JY)

Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers


I recommend listening at 1.25X

Link to Sphinx https://sphinx.chat/

Story Images and Links are only visible to Podcasting 2.0 Apps :
Get Podfriend
Get Sphynx
Get  Breez
See all the latest APPS for Podcasting 2.0
Produced by:   Anonymous Donors



Move to the same Podcast Host I use!
Get some credit on Buzzsprout! $20 Amazon Gift Card

Support the show (https://bit.ly/39tV7JY)

Gene:

we have Martin Morrison with us and Martin is the creator of pod friend. How are you doing Martin?

Martin:

Hey Gene. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me apart. And yeah, it's just that today. We just, I just launched a new version of I'm pretty excited about that.

Gene:

that's really cool. So what I want to do is break this interview into three pieces. So the first one, let's talk a little bit about you and your background after that we can jump into talking about. Your podcast app, and then we can finish up by talking about podcasting 2.0 in general and what you see on the horizon. So let's start off with with you. So, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Martin:

sure. Yeah. So my name is Matson and Cool. I started programming when I was I'm close to 40 years old and I started programming when I was like 13 or something doing bad scripts on my dad's computer. And then I moved into Pearl and started programming, some stuff that ended up being, I think. One of at least Denmark's first content management systems. And then I that's, I actually ended up starting my own business that the other content management system which was fairly successful here in Denmark, then the market got completely saturated. And then. I pivoted into product management where, which I'm actually working as now. I'm working as a product manager in a company called Trustpilot. And then in my day job no, in my spare time I do the podcast app part friend just, I love programming and I do miss it in my. Day-to-day job. So it's awesome to be able to, just get an idea and sit and code, and then, a couple of days later it will actually be done. You don't have to ask anyone for permission or, eh, yeah. Or get graphics for anything. You can just do it yourself. So

Gene:

there, there is a certain freedom that comes with being able to just do everything on your own. Isn't there.

Martin:

Yeah, there is. I mean, of course you do hit barriers where like I'm, I would say I'm pretty good at UX. Like what's user friendly, but I'm not very good at graphics. So I try to, for example, the pot front logo was made of a friend of mine. And that's super awesome. And then. If I need an icon, I had to pay for it. Sometimes I tried to use Fiverr or I look online and pay for an icon or something. So yeah, I can see what looks good, but sometimes I just can't make the graphics myself. But

Gene:

well, and pod friend is definitely a friendly looking product. So you've before we jumped into talking about the product though so you, how long ago did you start working on pod friendly. And did you have any other products that you did just for fun after you've really stopped doing programming commercially.

Martin:

Yeah I would say actually for ever since I was like 15, I've always had side projects going on or I've had, yeah, so many side projects. I can't really count them on my hands, but Some of them have been way too ambitious. Like I had a system where I made a interface for doing visual code. So you could drag and drop like blocks of code around and do code and then build your own app and website. And I do think that it was super amazing, but but it was just way too ambitious, eh but yeah.

Gene:

okay. So it was pod friend, the first sort of product with audio.

Martin:

Yeah, I started putt friend I would say some months before Adam and Dave started the podcast index. It might be a year ago roughly now. I guess I could find out if I really wanted to, but let's say around a year ago. And in the start, I simply passed the Apple API and use that. And I just saw, So many problems with doing that. So I was, yeah, it was super exciting when when the podcast index came along and I could use that instead.

Gene:

So did you create it on the web first or on iOS first or what was the process there

Martin:

Yeah. So I created on the desktop first, actually. So pod friend was a desktop app first. And then

Gene:

or Mac?

Martin:

what. For PC actually, but I use technology that directly translated to the Mac as well. So it, it could be both. And then, because I used this technology, it was just a react. Then it was very easy for me to, Hey, let me try to make a web version as well. And then. It quickly became apparent that people actually liked the web version probably more than the desktop version. And then that just became the natural, like thing that I was working on. It was also a little bit easier to quickly test things when I was developing. Yeah. And then the. I used a react native it's called for the Android and iOS apps. And I actually made it pretty far in, in those and they were pretty good. But then I found out that it was, isn't really scalable to use different code basis for for both the desktop and web and then the mobile. So. I w I went another direction which is called Cordova where now every single one of the apps is actually the same code base. So I only have to do it once. And of course it does make it harder upfront to do it because you have to test a lot more sizes and stuff, but when you finally nail it, then it's really nice to have it just in one code base.

Gene:

Yeah it's certainly for one person working on it, I think is a huge time saver.

Martin:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And when you're just one person you really have to, think about everything like, okay, am I making something that won't be scalable in the future? And if I'm doing that, then I need to stop. For example, I've had lots of great features, but where it would require, for example, myself, to. Be a moderator or I approve content and then it says, no, it doesn't work. And then trying to do something else.

Gene:

Yeah, no. And one thing I noticed about your app from, I guess a few months ago, when I first looked at it, Is, it seemed like it was the most friendly looking which is, yeah. Arguably that, that's not the main point of a podcast app, but it definitely is. And then also that you had incorporated a lot of the podcasting 2.0 features in there now you certainly hadn't had the value for value in there yet, but you had something that's fairly rare, which is the transcript working. So how long ago did you add the transcript ability to podcasts?

Martin:

Yeah, I think the transcript actually came in part front before it was even added to the podcasting 2.0 standard. And that's because bus sprout the podcast hosting company, eh, they released transcripts and I said, Hey. I w I want to support that. And so yeah, so I did that pretty quickly. And when the standard came out and it was only like very minor changes for me to change to so that, and the APOs proud at the same thing. But yeah, I'm very glad that you think it looks friendly because. I do try to make everything I can friendly. Also, it's in the name pot friend. So yeah, I, it's just become one of those things where I'm trying constantly to think about. And I don't know if I'm always successful, but at least it's I attempt to, try to make the messaging very

Gene:

Yeah, well, it's a combination of graphics and colors. And then the fact that when you hover over something, it kind of moves or it gets bigger or something happens. I think that also helps as well.

Martin:

Yeah. I do try to make like a feedback for everything. So so when you move over something, it will move. If you click something, something will happen. And yeah, I think there's this Philosophy in design that, design to delight. And I tried to do that so it feels fun to use as well.

Gene:

Yeah. And I think it's definitely working in, I've heard from a few people. That their wives really like it, which is interesting. I, and I'll tell you what for me, I certainly prefer give me something with a lot of options and be able to look at some technical parameters and then I'll really like that. It's definitely not targeting me, but I do appreciate the fact that just how simple it is, and even like going to day where I tested your new feature of depositing. Some Satoshi's into the wallet in the podcast friend or pot friends, and, you that that was very friendly as well. So you had several of these pop-up windows that kind of talked to you about what this entails and what you're going to need to do. And then you're you popped up the the two D barcode. Which was huge, most apps they're tiny. And that's one of the ones like tick our half the screen. Just everything just makes it very simple and straightforward to use. And so I was able to put a few thousand sat in there and then just tested it streaming and then sending the sat back in. And just as you and I connected here as well. So everything worked the first time I tried it. We said I knew usual because I, you could probably talk to Adam about this. I've spent hours and hours in the middle of the night, trying to figure out some obscure little features that were just, they weren't working the way they're supposed to, or I've filed all the directions and nothing happened, so it's it's nice when everything goes, according to plan.

Martin:

Yeah, it's fun with the value streaming because I know Adam and Dave, they have also really wished for it to be in part friend for a long time. And even though, It's probably in the grand scheme of things very early, like a very, but it's still feels like, Oh, Pat's friend was a little late to the party because some of the others came up with the

Gene:

Well, not really. It's the third program to really do it with its own wallet. There's one other one that does it, that talks to a wallet. Doesn't have its own built-in wallet, but he can connect to a wallet and then stream. But this is really the third one that's come out that has its own wallet. So I, you're still very early on. There's probably going to be another, at least 10 or 15 apps after you then have to add it.

Martin:

Yeah. And I just really wanted to, Have to you use a friendliness under control because I actually quit pre pretty quickly had the streaming and the boost working. But then I kept hitting, scalability issues with I'm using a company called LNP to, to handle the wallet and stuff. And I think, they also. I think just one person and, I talked to him now on telegram and he's very quick to react Oh, okay, let me just see if I can do something. So it's asynchronous instead of synchronous and on. Okay. That helped. There was just a lot of, lots of those things and I did also really want to make it user friendly. So it wasn't just for the. Tech guys and I, but I think, okay, of course buying Bitcoins and sending them, right, right now as it is, it, it is a little bit techie, you won't get, I know Adam hates seeing it, but you won't get my mom to do it for

Gene:

Yeah, I'm by the way, I'm the person that Adam referred to there because he got really mad at me because I was basically what I was selling. I was like dude it's great that this works, in theory, but I can't even begin to explain this to my mom. And then the next time on his podcast, he starts talking about I have friends that are, so yeah, it is funny and certainly. I think that this has been interesting to watch because the first step that allowed you to do this which was Sphinx was extremely difficult for non-technical people to use. And I said, as much, and it's yeah, this is not really something I could recommend to anybody. And then when I finally interviewed the somebody from that company and they talked about how this app came about everything made perfect sense because what they were building was not a podcasting app. What they were building was basically CLI a a Slack competitor that runs on your phone and allows reason it had Satoshis in it is because they wanted to be able to communicate with their contractors. And pay them contractors instantly like, like like the fiber model, right? So that you're working with a lot of people that are just doing small little things. They send you a link to their new file. You look at it and you hit the pay button and boom. Now there, all of a sudden they're paid. So

Martin:

no, that's pretty cool.

Gene:

That totally makes sense. But adding podcasting was just an afterthought. So obviously you couldn't wrinkly recommend. And then, when when the next step came out when the breeze came out, the interface was much easier to use, but there was other issues that, that, you know, so now with your app, the interface is even more simpler. Like I could explain this to my mom which she uses still, probably not, but I could certainly explain how to use this, including how to put money in there, even though I would probably end up being the one to do it. So I'm very happy to see that even though we started with very techie things, And things that would be more difficult to explain. And that's not a bad thing to say about them. It's just that they're targeting a very different demographic of person

Martin:

Yeah, but I think,

Gene:

and your app is making it a lot easier for just anybody.

Martin:

yeah, I think it's, and natural evolution that, things just. Gets easier. And I think Adam and Dave, they also said, they're not worried because it will happen. And I think, someone will also look at Todd friends and see what part friend does well and dust, bad. And then they will, build on that. And then I will look at them and say, Oh yeah, that works. And then I will steal their idea. So, yeah. Yeah.

Gene:

Yeah. And I, and then that's good. And I think the cool thing about watching the progression. Of podcasting 2.0 and podcasts index. And really this thing that Adam set in motion, and I told him like the first week after he talked about it and I think it was right after he and Dave started working on it. I said, this is the thing that we should have done because this is a product that is going to be. Useful to absolutely everybody in podcasting. And then even though you could say that about our hardware audio device as well, it would be useful. The problem was a lot of people that make podcasts don't know what they need. And so we had a small group of very active, very interested buyers, people that were couldn't wait to get our product because they understood what it would do to help their sound better. But. But it wasn't universally appealing. Like for a lot of people, you look at why I already spent $150 on the microphone? Why would I spend another $600 on some box to plug it into? That seems like crazy money because they don't really understand the processing that makes somebody sound good. The D the thing about like here in the U S a lot of people are listening to NPR podcasts, which are. A very particular sound. Adam likes to make fun of them. I enjoy the sound of them where, everybody speaks like this and it's a very ASM Mar type sound. Nobody gets overly excited, even though they might be talking about current events or exciting things. And so with that type of sound that those podcasts are usually right at the top of the Apple. Top 100 podcast lists. And it's not just because of the topics they're talking about. It's because they're sitting in million dollar studios they're using radio studios to record a podcast. And that's why they sound so great. And a lot of people just don't realize that you don't need to spend a million dollars, but you will need to spend some money to sound good on a podcast. Otherwise it sounds like you're just recording it and, holding your phone up to your mouth.

Martin:

Yeah, I mean, I listened to a lot of true crime podcasts and I would say. No, of course there is something to be said about like the topic or the research being done, but I would say 70% of it is actually how it's being presented. And yeah, the audio quality does have of course a huge impact on that. So I don't, I think, yeah, a lot of podcasts that's probably don't know how much it means. Well, or maybe saying, Oh, okay. I'll do that later. Yeah,

Gene:

true in video. If you watch YouTube videos, you'll notice that the ones that seem like they're the most high production value that like they're really good. They all have really good audio. Like they bothered having somebody that's an audio engineer on there.

Martin:

Yeah. That makes sense. But I would also say eh, I think you're 100% correct in that. No, it's a podcasting to 2.0, is a great idea. Like the more I think about it, the I don't actually think Adam and Dave realized it when they started or maybe they are geniuses. Because basically the whole value streaming it has inbuilt like a viral effect because a lot of podcasts as they want to monetize it. So they will automatically. Push the audience to, podcast apps that has this like value streaming and and the podcast index will get that 1%. So basically you can say, the podcasting 2.0 monetization for Adam Dave is dependent on it being a success. So if they can provide enough value also true, the podcasting 2.0 standard and everything, then they will get paid. And if.

Gene:

Oh, yeah

Martin:

if it's a bad idea, then they won't get paid. So it's a fantastic thing.

Gene:

I don't think Adam would mind me saying this, so obviously he did it with a smile. And the laughter when he said it, but he said, yeah, I think podcasting 2.0 is going to be my retirement plan. He's he knows that if you can get people to voluntarily give you money, which he is an expert in, by the way, because he's been doing it for now 14 years. And I'll actually probably a little less than that because they didn't start off asking for money on no agenda. When they started the podcast, it was just the recording of two friends talking basically. But once they started accepting donations for this, and I think they accepted mostly because people people are willing to give donations and even on like on my podcast. So this is I've only done less than 30 episodes here. And I think I got a, somebody asking me, where do I send money? On like episode four, I'm like what I just started. Why are you asking me for some money? And so I finally added a PayPal address on there. And then, from episode four and up until the last episode, it's people are sending me money and this is my plan was to start mentioning donations and hinting that it did good if I get some donations, maybe around episode 50. I like, I wouldn't probably donate to somebody with only four episodes. That's not enough. I'd want to make sure that they're going to stick around to this is going to be a podcast for awhile. And so that's what I think. So I thought I'm not even going to ask for them until I have a lot more episodes in the bank as it were. And obviously I'm very happy that people are enjoying this and they're wanting to donate, but it's a tough thing because really for a lot of people. Podcasting is something that they jump into expecting it to be able to generate money. And that's why most podcasts. And if you look at the podcast index, I think something like three quarters of the podcasts listed are inactive because people eventually just run out of time, run out of patience, run out of money and they just stopped doing it. And I think this is one of the other cool things about. Monetization that's built into podcasting 2.0 this is that it will provide more incentive, not everyone's going to get rich. In fact, the vast majority of people are barely going to know you make enough money to just pay their bills, but what they are all going to get is incentive. Even if all you're getting is, let's say my bills are a hundred dollars a month and that's all that's coming in as about a hundred dollars a month. Let's still incentive because now my hobby, which I enjoy doing, which it's not costing me money, at least it's a free hobby now, because before, if you are not getting donations you may enjoy doing it, but it's costing you money every month. Then eventually, your wife, your girlfriend, or you yourself are just gonna think and say, Yeah, this is just not worth doing. Let's find a cheaper hobby.

Martin:

Yeah. I think what we'll see happening is also that, people will from episode one, we'll start to see just a little bit of value coming in. Then in episode two, they might see, a small increase in episode three that we'll see an even bigger increase. And that's really motivating when you can see like small increases, because then you can start to see, Oh, okay. In half a year I might be, up here. And I think, just seeing the path ahead of you can also be very motivating and, but I think just, yeah, moving back to Adam and no agenda, I think you're definitely right. That, also in, Yeah, gave me a fine, the whole donation process selling titles to people. And I really hope to make something like that in part friend as well, like a high school or, so you can see yeah, fine. Any podcasts, Lexia who is the

Gene:

is always good. That, that sort of stuff always works. There's a I just ran into that the other day on thunder or something or other, I can't remember the name of it, but it's for managing. My lightning node. There's a

Martin:

Oh, the center

Gene:

yeah, thunder hub. That's the

Martin:

Yeah. Yeah.

Gene:

So thunder hub, if you go to one of their pages that has donations in it, you'll see that they actually list the top 50 donations and how much they donated and the name. And you can see that that podcast index is actually in third place right now with, I think 200,000 SATs.

Martin:

that's pretty

Gene:

which is, yeah, that's real money. That's a 200,000 sets is not a joke. But it motivated me to, instead of just waiting because it's like the first time I've literally used this app. And I thought, Oh I want to get on that list. So let's see how much can I afford to donate. I'll be at the bottom, but I'll be on it. And so I threw some some money in there and then help the author of the product, but also get to see that I'm now on the list. So it's always need to have stuff like that.

Martin:

Yeah. And you can say that, professionals podcast pot news, they do the same just with, real well, I don't want to say real money because of course, Bitcoin is real money, but let's say Dallas, they have the, gold supporters and silver supporters and they also show, Oh, your local is a little bit bigger. If you pay a little bit more money and. So it's always been like that but this, value streaming just make it so much easier. And I'm really, I'm also hoping that this, besides the highest call list, I, as soon as people have these wallets you can do all kinds of things like, Oh, I could actually, if people write a review, I could reward them from my own pool, like a, of streaming sets

Gene:

you could, that'd be against terms of service for most reviews, but yeah,

Martin:

Ah, okay.

Gene:

theoretically you could, let's just say.

Martin:

But let's say let's say I make a, let's say a discussion forum where people can comment on episodes or something and then people can upload download it. And then, if you get upvoted, you get a set for every upload or something like that. It could be really fun to

Gene:

from a developer standpoint, you can reward people for coming up with features that you end up adding that are good. It's Oh this feature was suggested by blah, blah, blah. Here's a hundred sites.

Martin:

Yeah.

Gene:

So there, there is a lot of opportunities there. And I think that the neat thing that's happening right now, and this is the part that I don't think Adam actually sees, maybe he does, but I don't think he does is while they're working hard. And while all of us are to some extent on a building podcasting 2.0. And the infrastructure and mechanism to be able to help fund creators and help fund programmers and everybody that's involved in the process. It is almost inevitable that this will leak through to other systems. That have nothing to do with podcasting, because it will be an example. It's going to be an example of what is possible with a decentralized small, quick payment system and things that, again, they have nothing to do with podcasting. They may not even have anything to do with video, but somebody will notice this and say, Hey, we could use that for us. And that's, I think going to be the bigger impact. And it may take a year, may take longer. Maybe it'll happen right away where we start seeing this, but I think that's going to be the biggest impact of what Dave and Nana are doing right now is really not just for podcasting, but for using podcasting as a proof of concept on what can be built into micropayments, where you imagine literally any app on your phone, there probably is some way to integrate micropayments into it. And of course almost no apps have that ability right now. What's happening with podcasting 2.0, in my opinion is really just a, it's a proof of concept for the whole phone ecosystem, not just for podcasting itself.

Martin:

Yeah, I agree. I do seem to remember that. Dave and Adam have talked about it. Like they've at least also talked about music. Like it would be cool if you could stream SAPs to your favorite artist or indie artists. But yeah, you're totally right. I. I think that the problem with today's monetization, I think Adam and Dave, they normally say that all the apps on your phone they cost like, or the podcasts have costs, 99 cents, but that's not even true anymore. Like all, all, basically all apps are free today. And then, they are filled with apps instead. And. That's just one thing that I would really like to be, part of solving because, I listened to a lot of podcasts from the U S and unless it has dynamic ads, which not a lot of the podcasts do today, you know that.

Gene:

you. Yeah.

Martin:

Yeah. Yeah. Because I'm listening about services that doesn't exist near me. So it's yeah. Yeah, so it's not even relevant. I was even thinking about, building in add, skip technology and part friend, but I could just see, while it might be relevant for me, ah, it would probably also mean that I would make a lot of enemies. So I moved away from that.

Gene:

Two comments on that relating to pod friend. And it's something I'm telling everybody that, because I think it's a great idea. First of all, for the skip forward and skip back buttons, a lot of people put them on the same value, whether it's 30 seconds forward and back or 10 seconds forward and back what I found to be the most useful that a few products have is 30 seconds forward, 10 seconds back. Because generally when you're skipping over things, they're going to be in like 32nd or one minute or two minute increments. So you just hit that button a few times. And if you go too far, you don't want to go back a whole half a second on that. You want to just go back like 10 seconds. So having a 30 on the front means less clicks to skip over and having 10 on the back means it's easier to find exactly that point where you need to pick up.

Martin:

I think that's a great idea. I have actually thought about that. What I also thought about was making it incremental so that it's five seconds both, but if you hit it, then it's five, 10, 15. So it, it moves up. So if you click a lot,

Gene:

That requires thinking you want things that don't change. They're like, if it's the buttons in the same place, I want it to do the same thing every time. I don't want to have to think about. Is it a double tap? Is it a single tap? Things like

Martin:

That, that's actually a great point. And I think that's also, I would probably have seen that myself. That's also one of the advantages of being a user of your own product, because while it might sound good in theory, then as soon as, I started using it, I would probably have come to the same conclusion as issue, but okay. Yeah. I think I might end up stealing your

Gene:

So I'm giving it away to everybody. Cause I, I stole it myself when I first saw it. I can't remember on which app, but I was like, this is perfect. This is exactly what everybody needs, because then you don't have to listen to extra stuff you don't want. And then the second thing which I posted on podcasts index for a suggested feature. Might as well also talk about on here is streaming not just playing back podcasts from our RSS stream. And certainly not every podcast has a live stream and that they're doing, or even the prerecorded stream, but I've been using the same app I've been using. What did they call tune-in radio or something like that? tune something. And yeah, tune in pro tuna on the radio. Like when that first came out, it was very easy and small in your face. And you could just listen to, select whatever stream you want to listen to on ice gas or something. And then they added more and more in features and somebody else bought them. And now it's the point where what they're really trying to do is sell you packages. Like they've got a sports package to where you're listening to all the sports games. And even though I paid for that app, I just complained to him the other day, I sent them a had a conversation with their support person. I was like, guys this is ridiculous. I've purchased this years ago. I paid for the app and I keep seeing ads, not third-party ads. Cause that's what I paid to get rid of. But add from your own app, constantly trying to sell me on something. This is ridiculous. And all I use it for is just listening to three or four streams. Finally I decided, all right. If I can't, if I can't get rid of these ads, I just need to convince some of these podcasts developers to add the ability to stream because you're a re processing sound. It's literally the same thing. The only difference is instead of reading a file across the internet you're reading and streaming data, which is in the same exact MP3 format. So it.

Martin:

think. I think the biggest differences, if you want a podcast app to handle the streaming then it requires a lot of bandwidth because that most of the apps they stream in the client. But as soon as you do the, like, when you download a podcast, then it's in the client. So nothing. The orchard doesn't pass through the server, but if you have to stream, then suddenly it has to go through the server. So everyone, and then suddenly it's a whole different ball game and,

Gene:

so you mean the server has to have more bandwidth

Martin:

Yeah. And also like the traffic bill and stuff, I guess that it's not that

Gene:

I don't think there's any difference if I'm, if I have a podcast server that you're. You know that I'm hosting my audio files on for the podcast. If that audio file is a hundred megs, which most of them are going to be around that size, you're just downloading very quickly. And then you're done downloading and then you're playing it locally. But if I'm streaming that same file, it's still a hundred Meg file. It's just that I'm only giving it to you at a slow speed.

Martin:

yeah. Well, I guess it depends on the technology because the way I'm thinking of it is that it has to be centralized on, for example, the pup friend server that you're

Gene:

No. You're you would not need any involvement with servers. It's coming directly off the streaming service. So check out Icecast

Martin:

Okay.

Gene:

I think that's the open source version of the streaming servers, but no you're purely a instead of, like I said, instead of downloading a file and then. Using that file to play back the audio. You're just, you're getting a little tiny pieces from the server and then you're playing those pieces. Usually buffers, like 10 seconds.

Martin:

Yeah, I see. So, so actually that's a great idea. And I've been wanting to do that for a long time. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Got inspiration from also the no agenda show actually, where, there's a cha chat going on while they have to show. And I would love to, scale that experience to more podcasts. So for example, let's say when the podcasting 2.0 show is going on, I could sit there and write geeky comments with the other developers and people interested. And I think. That would be great. I saw someone, I can't remember who, but I saw someone posts like a pretty well thought out spec actually get up the other day on, on how the live streaming could be. Yeah. So that could be really awesome too, because what it really needs is like the bat signal or like for. When a stream goes live, I pot friend, the server has to know about it so I can push it to the users and say, Hey, now this a podcast that's live

Gene:

That's true. But you like other people that I've talked to about this, keep thinking of like the ideal version. I think the first step is just have a button on the podcast stream that says stream. And don't worry about if it's live, if it's available or anything else, because if there's a stream and that's part of the enclosure, that's in the RSS file. Then having the ability to hit that button right in the podcast, same app, instead of now listening to a pre-recorded episode, you're just listening to the stream, even if there's nothing on there. Like what I described as, sometimes if I wanna, if I have the time to listen to the knowledge in the stream, I will hit that. Stream five, 10 minutes early and just let it run and do other things. And then as soon as Adam's on there, then I'll start hearing his voice, but I'm not worried about having nothing, no audio on there or having the previous program playing. It's just like a radio station. You don't, if you want to listen to a particular program on the radio, you're not going to wait until you get a. A bad signal. You're going to know. That, that happens at seven o'clock. So at six 45, six 50, I'll turn the radio on and then I

Martin:

guess the only difference is that will be something on the stream.

Gene:

But even if there's nothing, even if it's just quiet, I may want that. I may want to just have it ready so that as soon as there's something I can start hearing it and I'll give an example of that. I'll give you an example of that is with YouTube. Not many people use them, but some people do. You can actually pre schedule your YouTube live videos. And if you subscribe to that, preschedule then you might be either watching YouTube or YouTube is just sitting there and not doing anything. And then as soon as that program starts, it automatically flips to that YouTube channel and starts playing the program. Now you have to have YouTube open. To have that. But if you've hit the the pre subscriber, the prewash button, whatever it is, I can't remember what it's called, but essentially yes, I'm interested in this future event then it knows to just start that and let that take over if YouTube is already open. So I think it'd be nice to have, like what you're describing with a bat signal and to know whether there's a stream or not. But I don't think it's all that essential. Those are just extra features.

Martin:

Yeah, but th the user experience you're describing what YouTube would actually require, like the, some kind of bad signal, unless, you would just sit down and look at a empty black square until it comes on. But I do get your point that at least the first version of it, just to get rolling. Could be pretty simple. And then, because it's always easy to start with something and then build on top of that. Because then you're also creating the interest and stuff. So I,

Gene:

because my fear is that we just get stuck in a conversation as developers and go well, but how would we do this? What, how would we treat that? And then, you have another six months of people just talking and meanwhile, somebody could have just added the streaming feature without any of the extra stuff. And cause that's going to be the app that I'm going to use is that one, the one that's already got the feature, not the one from people discussing how to do it in the future.

Martin:

but okay. But I'll, I will propose something then that if you think of a nice attack for this

Gene:

I did. I actually, I put it in there. It's in there.

Martin:

Oh, okay, well then

Gene:

I've been adding a few of them. I've been trying to, come up with whatever things I, I'm not seeing already done. I'm trying to make sure that I contribute

Martin:

then I definitely don't mind being on the cutting edge and try and get as I said, this was the same thing I did with the transcripts. We had just implemented the way bus practice, so I can definitely implement a gene livestream in there as well. So, yeah, I'll do that.

Gene:

Very good. Very good. All right. I guess we were running a little longer than I expected, but let's wrap up on this. Kind of being a part of podcasting 2.0 and, interacting with all the people on there. And then seeing the GitHub on future proposed items. What do you have any ideas or do you have a feeling of what's going to be the next big thing to happen here other than streaming? Of course, we already talked about streaming.

Martin:

So I S I see some, some of the new proposals popping up but what I think will be really big is when we start to move into some of the more community oriented features and distributed content, for example, it could be something as simple as chat or comments on On a podcast but when we really figure out how to make it distributed so that, pot friends, when someone makes a comment there, then in, let's say peppers, it's also visible in, in that app. And the other way around then I think all the small in the podcast apps or podcasts They can they stopped really having some unique value that you won't see in Spotify or Apple. And yeah I would love to, to move a bit more ahead in that regards.

Gene:

so like a shared distributed community.

Martin:

Yeah, exactly. And I actually just saw today that the. In a cast apart they released the integration with the fed rivers. It could be something like that. Yeah. I didn't read it fully, but I remember also talking about it in the interview they did on the podcasting 2.0, and now it seems like the first release is out there. And I look really forward to seeing what that's all about and seeing if. I can implement some of that in the in depart friend app.

Gene:

Yeah, no, that's very cool. And the idea of having things that you can use different apps, but still, Have a similar experience I think is really cool. Like I don't know if anyone's working on this, but how cool would it be if you could listen to a podcast halfway through in one app and then listen to the second half in another app without having to manually find where you left off? If there if somehow that was saved in a store that was accessible by any podcasting app. And then it would just know, it doesn't matter which app you're using, you could pick up. So if all of a sudden the new app comes out, it's got some new features. You want to try it out, you open it up and it still has all the same podcasts that you used to, and you can pick them up from wherever you left off. Now, again, this was required a lot of people to agree on standards for preference files, essentially. But but it would be a really neat experience from a user standpoint. And it goes more towards that. I can explain it to my mom. So side of that argument,

Martin:

Yeah, I did actually see someone do I wish I could remember the name right now, but actually yeah. I do remember that on POS podcasting, Victor social, someone was working on justice and was actually making yeah, like decent headway on it. My problem is that it's another, the way they went ahead with it was another centralized service. So, every time a listener of mine, listens to a certain point, you called API and say, Hey, this user has made it this far. And. For me, it's just one added complexity that I don't really want. And two, I will be dependent on a third party that I don't really know. And until now it's at least not open source. If it was open source, I'm might be a little bit more inclined, but

Gene:

here's, it's a crazy idea. What if we write that information in the blockchain? So basically you're making a, I don't know, it doesn't matter what the value of the month is, but you could do a. One set contribution with the value of where you stop that podcast. And then the next podcast can just read it off the the value chain and then pick it up right there. I'm just thinking out loud. This may be a lot more work than it's worth, but there's always ways there's always ways to do that.

Martin:

Yeah. So one thing is work are involved, but the second is, I think I would object to this just from a privacy standpoint. Let's say that, someone in North Korea is listening to a podcast about, the revolution or something and suddenly it's on the blockchain, all the episodes he listened to. Yeah, I mean, Of course you could probably encrypt some of it, but if all the podcast apps have to be able to read it. Okay. I guess if you log into the other podcast app, you can like input your key or something.

Gene:

Yeah. There's always a way there's always a way.

Martin:

Yeah. It's also the engineer in me. I start to think, Oh, how would this work? So, yeah. Yeah.

Gene:

I tell you I appreciate you taking the time to be on and having this conversation with me. It's been great. Interesting.

Martin:

Yeah, it's been a pleasure for me too. So thanks for having me on.

Gene:

All right. Thank you.