0101 Sir Gene Speaks with Tucker Max - Pt 1

Sir Gene: 0:15

Hello, Sir Gene, and joining me today is Tucker Max. Tucker. How are you today?

Tucker Max: 0:21

Excellent.

Sir Gene: 0:22

Good. Uh, Monday morning.

Tucker Max: 0:24

It is every, uh, I have a life where Mondays are great for me. Like every day's pretty great. So.

Sir Gene: 0:31

Well, we definitely wanna get into that. Uh, but before we get into your great life, uh, in case there's somebody watching who doesn't know a whole lot about you, let me ask you a little more about sort of, uh, how do people describe you? And then,

Tucker Max: 0:48

that depends on the person.

Sir Gene: 0:49

yeah, I guess that would, wouldn't it, right? It depends what, what, how many years back we go.

Tucker Max: 0:54

Yep.

Sir Gene: 0:55

so, well, you're, I think you've been for a long time, uh, an author, right? You've written a number of books. Um, but, uh, now in your current circumstances, that's, is that not how you would describe yourself? Is that like not the main.

Tucker Max: 1:12

Um, probably not. No, it's, I mean, I don't spend much time writing, at least right now. Uh, right now my main job, I mean, I just sold my company, so literally my primary job is husband and father. Uh, I have a small ranch in Dripping Springs and, uh, you know, we have like, you know, sheep and cattle and bees and chickens and like, it's an actual working, probably more of a homestead, honestly, than a ranch, but, So, uh, got that and then I started a school out here, a Waldorf style school, uh, called Living Oaks, which is now like a hundred kids or so. And so, like I, I'm on the board. Um, I don't really have a job at this school, I'm just on the board cuz we help found it. And so, but that does take a lot of time. Um, and so those are probably, those are the three things I do now.

Sir Gene: 1:57

you doing The Little prairie on the house Lifestyle.

Tucker Max: 1:59

Yeah, right. Exactly. Yeah.

Sir Gene: 2:02

All right, well let's go back, uh, a number of years here. Uh, so before you wrote your first book kinda. Tell us where did you grow up? What kind of kid were you? And then, uh, what led you to actually writing your first book?

Tucker Max: 2:18

Yeah, so I grew up, well, my mom was a flight attendant for Pan Am. So for years I was kind of like all over the place. Um, we settled in Lexington area in Kentucky. Um, cuz that's where she's from. It's Kentucky. We got there. I was about eight. And then I left at 16, went to boarding school, then University Chicago, then Duke for law school. Um, and then got fired from being a lawyer. Uh, about three weeks in two and a half to be precise. Uh, then was fired from my dad owns a bunch of restaurants in South Florida. You know, my parents were obviously divorced early, like every other, every other, uh, gen X. Um, and, uh, the, my dad fired me from the family business about six months. And so.

Sir Gene: 3:06

what was the family business?

Tucker Max: 3:07

Restaurants. Yeah. So, um, or, or his side of the family. And so, uh, the other side were actually cattle ranchers, which is pretty funny, but now I'm on a ranch with, with two cows. Um, and so, uh, anyway, so, uh, like. I, I didn't know what I was gonna do. Like, uh, when you know, you get fired from the two things you, you kind of train for and know, then it's like, well, what now? And so, uh, I was writing at the time emails to my friends that, that they thought were like the funniest thing ever. And, um, and so, I, uh, one of my buddies is like, look dude, you know, you're not good at business. You're not good at law. But these emails weren't like the funniest things I've ever read. You should, you should do this. I'm like, what? Be a writer? He's like, yeah. I'm like, no, I'm what? I'm writers are bitches. Like I'm not a writer. And he is like, well, it's the, maybe you are a bitch cuz it's the thing you're the best at. And so, um, so I, uh, I literally, this is 2001, 2002 I sent. Literally e every publisher and every agent in New York at the time, there were a lot, like, there aren't many now, cuz that business kind of collapsed. But there used to be a lot. And I probably sent at least 500, maybe closer to a thousand inquiries. And, um, when I say I got zero interest, I mean literal zero, like, you know, 90 plus percent didn't respond. And then, uh, uh, the responses were all form rejections except there were like three or. Personalized rejections. Like, this is the worst thing I've ever read. You should never write an email again. You know, like, like, why would you send this to me? Like, what? Just, but in the meantime, my friends had started forwarding my emails to their friends and they had gotten, remember email chains? Like your old enough gene to remember? Like, yeah, right. Email forwards used to be a big thing, like before social media, like, uh, and so my emails were like huge emails back then. Like, uh, and, and

Sir Gene: 5:06

Now, where were you reliving at this time?

Tucker Max: 5:08

This, I was in Chicago at this time, and so, um, uh, I could literally do was crazy. I, I would get emails, my emails forwarded to me from like friends and other social groups who'd be like, oh, you should read this. This is so funny. You know, I'm like, scroll down to, you know, look at the headers, remember all the headers would be set off and stuff, and I'm like, I wrote that and they're like, oh, well that makes sense. It sounded like you. And so, um, so I knew my stuff was really funny. Like in the old days if you were, if your stuff got forwarded around, it was good. It's sort of like, you know, going viral now. It's the original going viral for the internet. And so, um, uh, it was funny. I got completely rejected from publishing, but I'm like, They're wrong. like all these people whose entire job it is, is to find new, great books are all wrong and, uh, which is both ridiculously irrational. But it turns out I was right because the emails I sent to them, uh, like the, the writing I sent to them. Ended up becoming a book called, I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell, which spent five calendar years on the New York Times Best Out List was number one for, you know, months and months and months sold. I don't know, at this point it sold like 2 million, 3 million copies. Um, and it's like, like it literally, the New York Times said it invented a new literary genre called Frat Tire. And so, That's kind of how I, I originally made my name and then there was a movie made about my life and about the book, um, that came out in oh nine. Uh, and like that's kind of how I came about. Like most people know me

Sir Gene: 6:42

Yeah. So what year did the book get published? Finally?

Tucker Max: 6:45

in oh six was, yeah, it finally came because like what ended up happening? I put all my, my emails on my website for free, right? All my, my writing, and this is, you know, like, again, oh two, this is back like when you had to use like geo cities, right? Like when, when, or, or you had to learn to program html. Like there was no WordPress or Wicks or Squarespace or any of that. Like, this is before MySpace existed. And so like, I, I, I remember. I'm like, all right, I'll just put it up for free. And this is back, like when the only people on the internet were like weirdos in their parents' basements. You know, like it was super weird to be on the internet, you know, there like seriously, there were like, there's like, whatever it is, four or 5 billion people on the internet. Now this is back when there were 30 million. You know, like 40 million. Like, it was like, it was people at colleges or people at corporations, right? Uh, or, or the weirdo hackers. Like that was it. And, um, and so my, my stuff got put on this site called college humor.com, which is still around. and, and it was a huge sight at the time and it was like, it was like the place you went to find funny stuff and, um, it blew up man. And then kind of from there, like it, it was, uh, you know, this is back when you could go viral with just writing, you know, like before videos. It's funny cuz people like, what if you started now? Like, what would you write? I'm like, I wouldn't be writing, I'd be Jake Paul or something. Like, I'd be doing videos or toss or whatever the hell. And so, um, anyway, so I, uh, It blew up. And then the publishers came back to me and they're like, oh, we wanna do your book. And I'm like, y'all assholes. That turned me down right now. You now you're, you're blowing up my phones. Um, and then it took a while. Get a deal, finish the book. You know, like, I, like I oh 4 0 5 like, or oh four, I think I, they came back, it blew up. They came back and then it wasn't really until oh six it comes out because you know the publishing cycle's forever. Right.

Sir Gene: 8:37

So who, who is, uh, the publisher who ended up doing

Tucker Max: 8:40

It was a company called Kens. They, uh, they're well known for. They're like the second biggest romance novel publisher after, after Harlequin, which everyone knows, right? And so, um, but they had a small division run by this guy named Jeremy Ruby Strauss, who's like pretty well known in publishing now cuz he, he's, he's started like three totally new. Genres. Like he was the first guy to do wrestler books, which blew up and sold tens, millions of copies. He was, he did Fra Tire, like there was meeting about three or four other people that, that, like, he kind of discovered. And then there's one more, like he, I think he was the first one to actually do YouTube star books, like back, you know, early YouTube days, like 2012 and stuff. And so like, um, he's really well known in the business. Uh, but like, he was not that well-known then. And, uh, found me early, loved me. Um, and then kind of like, uh, ended up, I ended up going there because of him. And so, and he was a great editor, man. I really like him

Sir Gene: 9:41

Nice. And then what were you doing for work during this period of time between when you, you got the rejections and you got the acceptance

Tucker Max: 9:50

Not a lot, man. Uh, like, uh, um, I, I was real poor. That was back, you know, like, like, dude, it's, if you ever think people need a lot of money to live, just hang out with like most 24 year old dudes, right? Like, I think I was living on 10 grand a year or something, and happy. Um, but I was, I was definitely at the level where like, Like, uh, I couldn't afford protein, you know? And so like, like, you know, there I'd have girls in my life that I was really into. And then I have girls in my life that bought me food right? Like, I was definitely at that level, uh, or excuse me, of, of, of finances and, you know, doing nonsense. And this is back before like it was really easy to make a living.

Sir Gene: 10:37

Mm-hmm.

Tucker Max: 10:38

like, what was I doing? Like I, I think I hosted, you know, like speed dating used to be a thing, and I would host those and I'd get paid like 150 bucks a night or something to do that three nights a week. And I'm like, oh, I'm rich. You know, like, like that was basically what I did. Like it was, uh, Or, I don't know. I don't even, it's actually, it's hard for me to get Brian. I never had any money. There was like a two, three year period where I had nothing and I'm not sure how I even wasn't homeless like really, man. It was, uh, it was like, like the oddest of odd jobs and like, uh, Uh, you know, friends paying for beer or dollar beer nights in Chicago, like that used to be a big thing. Um, and you know, or girls paying for stuff or whatever, you know, I eventually got tired of being poor, but I was real poor. I was couldn't afford protein poor for a while. Yeah.

Sir Gene: 11:32

And when you got tired of being poorer, uh, I assumed that it wasn't just simply money coming from the book sales because those paid very little.

Tucker Max: 11:44

Yeah. Um, what was I doing? Well, so I sold a TV show before my book came out, and so that was like 50 grand, which was like, I can live off that for a decade, you know, Um, and, and, uh, and then what else have I done? Um, There were a couple other thing, man, like it, I can't even remember. Um, I, like, I was, I did, I had a girlfriend who worked for kind of, for a while, and so like, she would make money and then like, uh, and I would live off of that. Like I definitely lived off women. Dude. Like, I, I, I don't mean it shame fully or shame Leslie, just as a fact, a matter of truth. It's just kind of what happened. What else? Uh, every now and then I'd write something and get paid for it, you know, like, uh, you know, like, uh, that's big, uh, you know, like magazines or whatever, but not mut man. Like I really truly lived on 10, 20, 30 grand a year. And then, um, Then he sold a couple shows in Hollywood, which, you know, not huge money, but 5,000 grand. Um, and then I, you know, that would li be good for a long time. Um, then book royalty started really in about oh seven, started coming in, uh, cuz the, the book came out in oh six, early oh six. And then it like really took off in oh seven and then it was like, Oh, wow. I've got a$200,000 check Like, I'm rich. Like I'm rich, rich. You know, like, um, and then also I started, by then I, I, like, I had a big website and so I was able to put ads on it. You know, this is like the early days of blog ads and affiliate stuff and, you know, I'd make like whatever, 1200 bucks a month. But like, that was enough for me, you know? And so, I mean, my.

Sir Gene: 13:30

Now, uh, do you remember what the royalty payment on that first book was? This A percentage? Because if you were making a few hundred, they were making millions?

Tucker Max: 13:40

Yeah, right. Uh, no, absolutely. So, um, royalty payments in the industry are standardized, so it's 15% hard cover, seven and a half paper, 25% digital and audio. Like, that's basically how it works. There are a few fringe exceptions in certain ways, like it, ed, I hope this is beer in hell. I got them. I, I don't, I still don't know how I did this. I got them to give me 10. After a while because what I did was, um, I did like an updated revised version and then I did a couple of other things. And so I got them to bump up my split from seven and a half to 10. Right. Which still, I'm getting fucking enough screwed on, man. Like, it's not like I'm like, oh, I got them. But like, um, cuz because my book never went into hard cover, it started as paperback. Right. And so like, I mean, really 50% of what I should be making, I didn't get, you know, because like, like a book that's sold, like that would just stay in hard cover. But mine was always paperback, so it's like, you know, it's 1299 or

Sir Gene: 14:45

they had a multi-year New York Times bestselling book in paperback the whole time,

Tucker Max: 14:49

The whole time. Yep.

Sir Gene: 14:51

and they never really released in the hard cover or anything.

Tucker Max: 14:54

They did, they did a special release of 30,000 hard covers and get this, they gave me a 20% royalty on that because I signed all 30,000,

Sir Gene: 15:04

take? Jesus

Tucker Max: 15:05

bro. It was, I actually, I'm not kidding. I had to have a chiropractor, an a r t chiropractor that I went to like every other day for a month. Like when I was doing this, dude, I signed a thousand. You know, it was like the little things that you put in the books. So I didn't have to, actually, not the physical books. I signed the little plates, they're called stickers, basically. Um, I signed a thousand a day for a month. On average, I think there were some days signed, 2000 other days, like, bro, by the end it was crazy. Like, uh, I had to have these weird setups so I could like, uh, it was, I,

Sir Gene: 15:43

So you don't recommend that to

Tucker Max: 15:45

I don't even know why I agreed to it for money. Then I'm like, fuck that. Like, I, like at the end I'm like, I'd rather would've just paid to not have to do this

Sir Gene: 15:53

and then you never, during that, uh, period in time, you never went back to doing anything law related. Why is that?

Tucker Max: 16:00

Now because, uh, Oh God. Um, well, first I got fired from, from the legal profession in a very public way. Like I wrote an email to my friends about what happened before I got fired. And, uh, after I got fired, they thought it was hilarious and forwarded it to all their friends, and then, like everyone knew, so like, legal profession's, pretty small. And so like, it was, uh, I kind of screwed myself, but more importantly, I didn't wanna be a slave man. Like, you know, a slave with golden handcuffs is still a slave and lawyers might get paid a lot and all this, but it's like, it sucks, man. You, you, you are doing the worst, most horrible shit. Uh, I mean, I guess you're not working in a cobalt mine, but like, it, it is the intellectual, uh, and white collar version of working in. And I'm just not gonna do that. I'm not gonna sell my life for 150 grand a year or 250 grand a year or whatever. It's not gonna do it. Like I don't care. No.

Sir Gene: 17:00

And, uh, why did you end up going for a degree in law had you not realized that's what it was, or you just wanted something to do or.

Tucker Max: 17:09

I was stupid. Come on Jean. Like we're talking about a 21 and 22 2 year old kid making decisions about his future. What the fuck did I know? I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground, man. Like, and I, I picked law school because, You know, I went to the University of Chicago, which is a top 10 undergrad. Like my decision, like it for me, it was like Harvard, Princeton, uh, uh, Chicago or Stanford, right? And I ended up going to Chicago. And so like if you come from that world, the world of the elites, right, is what people like to call it now, which is nonsense if you know that world, but whatever. Um, The, the, there's four main, three main pathways you can go into investment banking. Right. Which a bunch of my friends, you know, went to Wall Street, worked for JP Morgan, or, or Bear Stearns or whatever. I interviewed with the banks, but thankfully I had upper class friends who had graduated and went to iBanking and they're like, they, they, they were like zombies, man. They're like, don't do it. Don't do it. We work 120 hours a week. It's the worst. And the ones who loved it, Strung out on Coke and like, you know, like their lives were banking and then coke, and then hookers, and then banking, and then coke, and then spreadsheets, Coke and hookers. And I'm like, I don't want any of those three things in my life. Like, there's literally not one of those three things. And so I'm like, all right, I'm not doing that. And then there were the management consultants, right? You know, I, I interviewed with McKenzie and uh, and all those, uh, Anderson back when they existed and. All the people I knew from Chicago who became management consultants were the most, they were, they were the most pretentious, annoying nitwits. And then it's like going to interview with those companies. I'm like, Oh fuck. You're just the pretentious, annoying twits who fucking grew up and have power like you want. You wanna know who was like a partner at McKenzie, Pete, uh uh, uh, Butti Checker, whatever the hell his stupid name is. Right? That dude. That dude is the iconic management consultant. Like, you wanna go hang out with that guy? Have fun. like seriously, like no, there's no chance. Or MIT Romney, right? Like that type right. Like if you, if you forget it's not about right or left. Like they annoying twits are on both sides. And so, uh, I was like, no, I'm not doing that. And then, uh, uh, so the other option is law school. And to be a lawyer, like you know, of the white collar, high status, easy professions and like, you know, the world was different then and I w didn't have any real adults around me. My parents sucked. They didn't care. Even though my dad ran a business he didn't like was never really. Like he, he didn't consider, he didn't think of himself as an entrepreneur. He didn't talk. He didn't, I mean, I didn't spend much time with him either. Like my dad didn't care about me. And so like, that was never really not a way I thought. Right. And so I, like, I was g really good at school. You know, it's so funny, so many entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs cuz they were terrible at school. And I like, I know so many of them now and I'm like, and they're all fascinated by the fact I have these high, you know, advanced degrees. And I went to the best school, bro. I got an academic scholarship to a top 10 law school and I'm a white dude and they're all like, a lot of them like really have a reverence, uh, and a respect for me because of that. And I'm like, That system is bullshit. like it literally is just a, I learned how to game the system and you didn't, you thought you did badly at school and thought that meant you were stupid, and so you're insecure about it and respect people who did good at it. I'm here to tell you the truth. It's just a game and you didn't understand the game. And so you thought you took that as a judgment of you. I did understand the game. I'm no smart. I'm like, you know me. I'm no smarter than you. I'm no better than you. Like your company's a a billion dollar company. Mine did 25 million revenue, so don't tell me I'm smarter than you. Like, that's stupid. Like that's nonsense, right? Like it, it is just, you didn't realize it was a game. You thought it was a measure of you when it's. And I realized very early and not, I'm not gonna pretend like it was a conscious thing, I just kind of figured it out. That, that the game of school is regurgitating back to the, the, the, the authority, what they think the answer is. That's it. It's figuring out their mind and then repeating their mind back to them. Right? And so like, which is, as soon as I explained this, entrepreneurs like they literally, their face will drop and. Oh God, you're right. I never thought about that. And like I can tell you there, I've had certain dudes, good friends of mine, or guys you probably know who literally like, have had massive emotional revelations because of like, like I'll explain this to them and it starts'em down the path and like, oh, all these insecurities I can let go of. Like this is all nonsense. Like, yeah, you can. Um, uh, and I have no, it. If you look at my bio now, I don't list any of my schools or like, it's such bullshit, right? It really is. And I, and I'm not saying that from the outside. I'm saying it from the. But when you come up in that system, you don't really know any better. And I was really good at it. And so it was like doing anything outside of that system would've been a risk. And at 25, I was an arrogant nitwit who didn't, but didn't wanna take any risks. I was like the, the definition of, of that sort of dude. And so, um, uh, like I just, I, I was not, uh, I was not, um, I wanted, I, you know what I wanted, man? I wanted money and power and prestige without having to work for it, and

Sir Gene: 23:00

Now, isn't there one other pee you're missing there?

Tucker Max: 23:03

Pussy. I had that already. I had, I had that already. So, well, I, maybe more, you're right. I wanted more. Yes. I you, because you can always, there's, uh, at that point in my life, I thought you could always get more. Now I know better, but, um, uh, and, and so if you're in the elite schools, the, the easy path to that is iBanking management, consulting, or lawyer. Now, what I didn't realize at the time is that, I didn't realize that every bit of responsibility that you abdicate will be taken up by a tyrant and used to control you. And those paths are absolutely complete abdication responsibility. And you, you, you're owned, you are an owned motherfucker. And I'm gonna tell you, any banker, you know, any management consultant, you know, any, any big firm lawyer, not necessarily a defense attorney, that's a little different. But any big firm lawyer, they're. whether they know it or not, they're owned. And I realized that, um, I kinda learned it the hard way, um, because I tried to be my own man in a law firm and I got fired in two and a half weeks right? Um, in a way, I don't blame them. Like, I'm not like, oh, they're evil. No man. They're just, they have their system and it goes a certain way. And if you don't wanna buy into the system, that's cool, but you gotta get the fuck out. Same with management consulting. Same with. Um, uh, and so I got thrown out of that system. And then same with my own fucking family, my own father, right? Like, uh, he built his business as a, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs, they build their businesses as shrines to their egos. And, and my dad did. And I went in thinking, now this is like, let's build this business. Let's scale it. Let's do this. Let's, let's make it. I went in thinking it was a business, not realizing that was not the primary purpose. And, uh, and. He ejected me. And so it was like I had to learn. I'm one of those dudes that, um, I learn, but I usually learn the hard way. like I usually don't learn the easy way. It's been one of the things I've been focusing on the last couple years is like, how do I learn the easy way? Like with guns, I'm like, okay, let me find an expert that I really trust and then just listen to him right? And not, not have to learn all of this myself, but like find someone good, not, not whatever. And so, but at that point in my life, I was an. So that, to answer your question, I picked law school cause I wanted money, power, respect, status, women, the easy way, and I thought it would get it for me. That was not a conscious decision, but that was what I was really doing.

Sir Gene: 25:37

Got it. Okay. Well that makes sense. So that covers that kind of chunk of your early life. Um, and then in 2006, 2007, the book is just going gangbusters.

Tucker Max: 25:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it really ramps up an oh 8, 0 9, 0 8.

Sir Gene: 25:53

and what, when that happens, how does your life.

Tucker Max: 25:56

So, bro, it's crazy, man. When you become even a little bit famous as a guy, everything changes. Like women don't get this because even mediocre women, Usually go through phases where they're like the prettiest girl at the bar, right? But really attractive women spend their whole lives in, in this realm where like everybody wants you. And everything revolves around you. And so women understand that, and that's the reality for at least a lot of women, not all women. There are some women who unfortunately are very unattractive and they just, they don't, they're more like men in terms of how they experience reality. But uh, anyone who's like, let's say a six or above. It understands what it means, means to have everything they've experienced. What it means, everything revolve around them. Men don't, and I like, I have some, I have a couple friends who are like, just like utterly gorgeous. Like women come to them a lot and even those dudes still have to like talk to the girl, right? They still have to like, like be something besides an erect penis. Right? Um, uh, uh, But when you become famous as a guy, it, everything changes. And in a way that is literally unfathomable, man, because like I had pretty good game, man. I got a lot of girls, I was whatever. But I had game, I had to work for women, right? And I was good at it and I got a lot. But it's like if I didn't go to the bar or I didn't go meet women, somehow they weren't showing up at my. once you become famous, they show up at your door like, it's fucking insane, man. Like the, the, the metaphor I always give is imagine, imagine you, you, you're like a dude out in the wilderness by yourself, and you gotta learn how to fend for yourself and how to like, you know, uh, get food and all. And you can get really good at that. And you can live off the land. You can kind of have, like, honestly, you can have an abundant life. but if you don't get up every day and go get food, you're gonna starve and die.

Sir Gene: 28:09

Yeah.

Tucker Max: 28:10

Well, now imagine going from that to living in a buffet where the food just shows up and there's more than you could ever imagine and you can't eat at all. That's what being famous as a guy is like in terms of relationship with women. Right? And so like, It was like being like a wolf in the wild to a wolf at a petting zoo. I, dude, I hooked up with, I can't tell you, I had a coup multi-year period where it was like, hold on, these girls are emailing me and they want to just come over and have sex with me and then leave. And that's it. And then maybe have sex again some more. But like, we don't have to do anything else. I'm like, this is amazing. Like what? This is incredible. And so I took advantage, man. I really did. Like, I absolutely unequivocally, unabashedly. Uh, and it's funny too, man, like I didn't, I don't, I don't wanna say I didn't care what they looked like, but. Fives and ups come on over. Like, like now, if you're a five, you can't, like, the most I'm gonna do is open the door. Like, don't make this hard on me. If you're a nine, maybe we can meet at a bar. But like, uh, uh, I was, I didn't care. Like, I was like, let's go Right? And, um, but then like, man, after a while it's like, It starts to wear on you, man. It's like it's not fun. Aside from being tedious and repetitive and all that, I mean on some levels, sorry, sex does not get repetitive. What got repetitive and tedious was like the realization that none of these women were sleeping with me. They were having sex with an image of me. They were having sex with Tucker Max, right? They were, I thought I was getting the best end of. What I realized was it was definitely exchange and they were taking a lot and, and I'm not talking shit about any of them like it like, but like they were taking just as much as they were giving. And at first I didn't understand that, but then over time I started to realize, oh, Oh shit, I'm paying for this in a, in a soul way. In a, like, these women are using me as much as I'm using them. And I didn't understand that and I didn't, uh, I didn't know there was a cost to it at first. It's sort of like eating fast food, you know? It's like, oh, this tastes great. What could be the problem be? Well, there's a price to pay. It might take a while for it to show up. And so it did for me. And, and, but like, it's not, I'm not like a, oh, they were crazy and tried to stab me, or, nah, man, they. I was pretty good at avoiding the crazies. Most of the girls I slept with were, you know, on the scale of it, you know, nice people. So like I, you know, I had some crazies here and there, but nothing that big. Like the, the worst crazies I had, the worst stalkers I had were dudes. Um, but like, that's a whole separate conversation. And so like, uh, eventually I realized, man, this is, this is taking a toll on my soul that is, I don't want it to do. and, um, and bro, like, you know what it is, women know what it's like to be objectified because most women are objectified their whole life. And, and not good or bad, it's just a fact, right? Dudes usually aren't objectified. Uh, I was, and I know what it's like, and on one hand it is kind of cool, but on the other hand, it's very soul sucking and shallow and, and, um, unfun. And so, uh, I went through the phase, I went through a couple different phases, but eventually it started therapy. Like really kind of started dealing with my issues, you know, all that kind of stuff. And that took a while. And then I got to a kind of a pretty healthy place and started like looking for a girlfriend. Um, like I, you know, like, and dated a few girls who were, you know, great girls, but. It's like I kind of had to learn how to date, you know, learn how to pick women, learn how to date, cuz I was really good at sleeping with women and picking women for that and interacting with women in, in sort of a playboy ethereal way. I was very skilled at that. I was not very good at interacting with women in a relationship way and I kind had to learn all that. And then I had to start with kinda like starter type girlfriends and then just kind of move up and then eventually met my wife, the woman who is now my wife. Uh, um, And uh, and then it was like I knew pretty quickly with her, like, all right, like I was ready. And she was like, I was like, yeah, this is, this is the right woman for me. And now we have four kids.

Sir Gene: 32:44

yeah, you had a, a whole bundle in there, uh, but before all that happened, so I, I wanna kinda learn about how you went from having this book that took a long time to put together and actually get out there, but once it did, it just went gangbusters. So now, Do you realize that, oh, well I can make more, write more books, this will be easy. Or is the pressure on and you're like, oh shit, is this a one time deal? How do I, how do I repeat this? Well, how do I period of time go for you before your second book?

Tucker Max: 33:20

I, I think I made a mistake in certain ways. I w I wrote my first book and then I focused on Hollywood instead of writing books two and three. And so if you like books two and three still hit number one, the best outta the list, they're still, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But if you read my books in order, 1, 2, 3. You're gonna see two things I got. I was a much better writer in Books Two and three, but Books two and three lost an Essential Energy that Book one had. It's almost like a desperation. You know, when I wrote Book one, I had burned the bridges behind me and it was like it was fight or. It was winter die.

Sir Gene: 33:58

Mm-hmm.

Tucker Max: 33:59

By the time I got to books two and three, I was like a, like a Roman emperor I was bathing and pussy and gold and like, it was the, the stories, it's better writing and they're better constructed and the jokes are technically funnier, but I am missing the manic must have energy like it's not there. And you can, and you can feel it when you read it. It's weird, man. It's a very weird thing and I can see it pretty clearly. Two and three. I was, it wasn't an act, it was just, I was in a different phase in my life and I kind of wish I'd written two and three from the energy of Book one, which I could've, I could've just kept going. I didn't, uh, because Hollywood came calling very quickly and, um, and when you're, I like anyone who intentionally goes out to be famous, which I did. Um, that narcissism is about filling a hole in. And so I had, I was, you know, Hollywood's a way bigger fire hose than books. And so having a TV show or movie would, you know, whatever. And so I kind of ignored book writing for a while and focused on Hollywood. And, um, it worked. I got, I sold two TV shows and got a movie made. You know, like lots of people go to Hollywood, very few get anything made, and I. and it was horrible. Every aspect of, bro, I got to Hollywood thinking I was a soulless narcissist, and then I met actual soulless narcissist, and I was like, holy fuck, like bro,

Sir Gene: 35:31

You got a long way to go.

Tucker Max: 35:33

bro, they weren't just a little different

Sir Gene: 35:35

Mm-hmm.

Tucker Max: 35:36

It's like, it's like, it's like think, it's like playing neighborhood football and thinking you're a badass and then getting to the nfl I'm like, oh, hold on. Except, except with horrible depravity and soullessness. instead of athletic skill. Oh man. Dude, I don't think I'd ever actually met a truly evil sociopath until I got to Hollywood. I, I probably did, but like, Bro and I, it's not like I didn't even see all the pedophiles, right? Like I didn't go to Nickelodeon. Like I was only in like, I was only dealing with the rapists, you know, like at Weinstein, nutty. Like I was only seeing that side and not just, that's the funny thing about the whole Harvey Weinstein thing. He's a horrible, horrible criminal rapist. There's no doubt everyone in Hollywood knew.

Sir Gene: 36:22

Mm-hmm.

Tucker Max: 36:24

Everyone had a Weinstein story about how he did something to them or to a friend that they knew directly, right? So like it's like that, but here's what no one talks about, man, is that like, let me put it this way. So once the tide shifted on him, and I'm glad it did, like I don't know what the number was, 20, 30, 40 women came out and said he assaulted them, which is awesome. That's courageous for them. I'm glad that that. Think of the thousands of women that Weinstein dealt with in Hollywood and the hundreds that he made stars who haven't said anything that should tell you everything you need to know about the type of person in Hollywood. And they're not, not saying anything cuz they're afraid. That's not that that ship has sailed

Sir Gene: 37:14

yeah. And then,

Tucker Max: 37:15

great, but like there's a reason.

Sir Gene: 37:18

you think anything's changed though in Hollywood or did just one guy get named and nothing really in the system changed?

Tucker Max: 37:25

no, of course not, bro. The system is built on being evil like it Come on, man. Like the whole system is built on that. That's what it is. That's the history of it, is exploitation, uh, of talent and artists. And a lot of things. That's what it is, man. It's built on that. And I'm not saying no, everyone there is awful. Like there's a few people who are like genuinely pretty good people who somehow exist in that cesspool of sociopathic evil. I don't know how, but they do. But they're the rare exception man. Like, um, I forget the screen. He's pretty well known. He did some big movies when, when the Weinstein thing broke, he's done a bunch of movies for, for Mere Maxim Weinstein, and he wrote this Facebook post, which I think is deleted now. I should have saved it. It was so good, man. Like he's obviously, he's a famous screenwriter. He was a good writer and he basically wrote this whole thing about how I think the, he called it. We all knew. And, um, like, he just like detailed, like, you know, I was there, I knew this. I, I didn't see Weinstein actually rape a woman, but I knew, I knew. And he is like, and don't say you didn't know, you knew too, just like I did. And he went, it's like, you know, like, like look around man. Like Matt Damon had been Aflac or walk around like nothing happened brother. Those motherfuckers. They knew for a fact. I don't, I doubt they participated. I'm not calling them rapists, but they absolutely unequivocally knew and there's like not just a couple of accounts of it. Like they knew. They knew. There's lots of women who are like, I told Matt Damon like a lot, dozens, well, Ben Affleck knew this, so.

Sir Gene: 39:09

Yep.

Tucker Max: 39:09

When there's no consequences for being a party to horrific sociopathy, why do you think it would go? Like, what's gonna cause it to go away? It

Sir Gene: 39:18

Yeah. So it just goes more underground.

Tucker Max: 39:21

or it just shifts to different people and they use different

Sir Gene: 39:23

Yeah. Or I don't know if you saw, uh, I guess Jim Carey is suing somebody for the, uh, leaking the list of flights to Epstein's Island.

Tucker Max: 39:36

Why is he on it?

Sir Gene: 39:37

Yeah.

Tucker Max: 39:38

Well, I

Sir Gene: 39:40

And I, I don't have a whole lot more for than that. I'm, maybe this will date poorly, but uh, when stuff like that comes out, I mean, I'm, I'm not really surprised. It's just kind of like, clearly people wanted to keep that list from ever seeing the light of day.

Tucker Max: 39:57

I mean, my understanding is there are definitely some people on the fringes with Epstein who are not involved with the horrible stuff. That's possible. Sure. Right. Like, fuck, I'll get, I hung out one night. You know, Jared from Subway, the guy who was like the, had all the

Sir Gene: 40:13

Yeah. The guy who lost weight.

Tucker Max: 40:15

Right. I was at a basket, like a basketball thing in Indiana once, and hung out with him one night for a few hours. So it's like, like I, of course, I didn't know this is long before any of that happened, right? He's in jail now as he. It is possible to intersect with horrific people and not be involved in their stuff. Right. Um, so is it possible someone wrote on one of Epstein and he gave a lot of money to a lot of institutions and he ingratiated himself with a lot of people. Yeah, sure. But that's the way these people work, is let, let, let's get everyone just dirty enough that they're not gonna call me out because they don't wanna.

Sir Gene: 40:50

Mm-hmm.

Tucker Max: 40:51

So I who know, I'm not saying Jim Carey did or didn't do. I don't know. I've never met Jim. I don't know anything about Jim. Um, you know, but like, yeah, dude, like the, the, I don't know. I know a lot of people from that world a lot, and I don't know many of them. In fact, I can name maybe two who I would let around my. And I don't mean like I'd let watch my kids, like not one of them would I ever let watch my kid, but I can think of less than five that I would let in my house when my kids were there

Sir Gene: 41:27

Wow.

Tucker Max: 41:29

So, and, and I just, I don't necessarily mean that they were deadly kids, right? I don't know. Who knows? But it's just like that there's no compromise between food and. You know, like if I hand you a glass of wine, I'm like, Jean, it's just a tiniest bit of poop in there. You can't really even see it. Okay, well I'm, are you drinking it or not? I'm not like if you got into that system, because at some point you're gonna see what it is and then you decided to stay. That's all I needed to know, mayor, like I decided to leave. And on my own long, I had to leave. I got a fucking movie. Once you get a movie made, once you start down the path, you can inver. I mean, the movie didn't do that. Well, I'm not trying to act like I was, uh, you know, everyone was clamoring to work with me. But it would've been easy to keep going. Easy. No, I couldn't. It was like I decided I wanted to keep my soul. Instead of sell it and it, it is, the metaphor is sell your soul is a great metaphor, man, cuz it really, you, you do have to at some point look yourself in the mirror and decide, all right, I, at, at minimum, I am going to turn away from evil that I know is happening so I can get a benefit from this system. That's the minimum thing. Even if you don't participate, I, I am going to willingly turn a blind eye to shit I know is going.

Sir Gene: 42:52

Yeah. You gotta compromise with yourself.

Tucker Max: 42:55

Yep.

Sir Gene: 42:56

So

Tucker Max: 42:57

a sociopath though. I guess

Sir Gene: 42:59

then, then you're lucky. You

Tucker Max: 43:00

Right then it's like, what? Yeah. Then you don't care. But

Sir Gene: 43:03

Uh, so that's who's drawn to

Tucker Max: 43:05

yeah, that those are the

Sir Gene: 43:06

but I gotta ask on the, uh, the whole Me too thing, because when that started going big, it wasn't just famous people that were starting to, uh, all of a sudden pop up in the radar. Um, did you ever have any worries about any of the, the girls that you've had fun with over the years deciding to see things in a different light?

Tucker Max: 43:26

no. Not at all. No, I, I truly didn't like I was the ultimate opt-in. Right. You know, like, uh, like, you know, if you're Harvey Weinstein, he's a fat, disgusting job by the hot looking dude, right? Like his best case scenario. Broken, narcissistic women will sleep with him to get rolls or something like that.

Sir Gene: 43:52

And at this point, We have a glitch. unfortunately the second half of this interview, a little more than a half in fact, Is lost. but no fear. I will, hopefully be able to reconnect with Tucker. And re-ask the questions that I asked them in the second half, which is really leading up to after his books. How he got to where he currently is his company, the book publishing and how he sold that. Some other fun topics that we covered. Shooting and self-reliance. But unfortunately, So hopefully you enjoyed this part of it. And I will let you guys know when we will reschedule and get part two.